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[00:00:00] Ioannidou: Here is a good question. Listeners, how do you handle awkward chats, messy moments, and all the ethical curve balls? Dentistry throws your way. I know sometimes I have hard time with it, so I'm sure many of you share my feelings. So, hello everybody. I'm Dr. Effie Ioannidou.

[00:00:20] Wright: And I'm Dr. ArNelle Wright. Today we are hearing your real-world dilemmas and we're searching for the right call.

So let's get started.

[00:00:31] Announcer: From the ¸£Àû¼§ÊÓƵ, this is Dental Sound Bites created for dentists by dentists. Ready? Let's dive right into real talk on dentistry's, daily wins and sticky situations.

[00:00:48] Ioannidou: Hello, friends. Today's topic is a certified fan favorite. Yes. Guess what? Sticky situations, people!

[00:00:57] Wright: Yes. Well, hello, hello everyone! You all know that we'd love to share and listen to the real-life issues that dentists are facing on their day to day. So we are back with more stories and questions from our listeners.

[00:01:11] Ioannidou: Yes, indeed. But before we start, I just want to remind you, and I want to encourage you to write to us on social media and ask us anything. Yes. Really anything. I mean, not really anything, but most of the things share your questions so we can answer them in upcoming episodes. We love to share and communicate with our listeners.

[00:01:34] Wright: Yes. Well, speaking of our listeners, it's time for us to get into it because I know you all are ready for today's episode. Yes, today we're excited to welcome our very special guest. Dr. Kelly Roth. Welcome, welcome.

[00:01:47] Ioannidou: Welcome.

[00:01:48] Roth: Thank you. Thank you. Happy to be here. Honored to be here.

[00:01:52] Ioannidou: Dr. Roth. Kelly, we go by first name here because since we are all doctors, let's not play the doctor.

[00:01:59] Roth: thank you. Yes, please.

[00:02:00] Ioannidou: Right. So, Kelly, tell us a little bit about yourself. Uh, we would love to find your connection to the Council on Ethics, bylaws, and Judicial Affairs.

[00:02:12] Roth: Thank you so much. Well, I am a general dentist. I am from Canton, Ohio, so I practice, uh, wet finger dentistry. I'm a full-time dentist and I joined the council on ethics, bylaws, and judicial Affairs from District seven, which is Ohio and Indiana.

So I served my four years on there. I just came off of that last October and the last year I served as chair of CEBJA, as we call it. We like to say CEBJA.

[00:02:36] Ioannidou: I love it.

[00:02:38] Wright: Acronyms.

[00:02:38] Roth: So that's where my connection comes in. I was chair last year and the year before I was vice chair.

[00:02:45] Ioannidou: Oh, wow.

[00:02:46] Wright: Awesome. Yeah. Well, um, why don't we just jump right in.

Dr. Roth or Kelly, I should say. Sorry, I gotta, I gotta remember. That's okay. First name basis.

[00:02:56] Roth: I go by both Dr. Kelly, Dr. Roth. Whatever.

[00:03:00] Wright: Cool. Well, we want us set the stage for our conversation today. Yes. Can you give us a little refresher on the ¸£Àû¼§ÊÓƵPrinciples of Ethics and Code of Professional Conduct?

[00:03:09] Roth: Absolutely.

[00:03:10] Wright: Um, anything that you can share that, that provides a little sneak peek or an overview of what it is and the role that it plays in dentistry will be good for us.

[00:03:17] Roth: Great. Well, I actually have my copy here. Awesome. Everybody has an opportunity for that. It is off hot off the presses. Ooh. This talks, it has three different parts to it, so it talks about the principles, it talks about a code of professional conduct, and then it also has advisory opinions in there.

So it's a great thing to read through. If you really do get stuck in those situ, sticky situations, you can go in there and. See what CEBJA’s opinions are or what an opinion might be on those situations. There are five principles, so they're patient autonomy, non maleficence, which is do no harm.

Beneficence, which is do good veracity, which is truthfulness and justice, which is fairness. So those are the principles. Those are those big, big words that we use in there. What I like to say is a lot of ethics are that gut feeling. So it's that right or wrong. And that this puts words to that right or wrong.

[00:04:11] Wright: I love it.

[00:04:11] Roth: So how's that for an overview? Mm-hmm.

[00:04:13] Wright: That was good.

[00:04:14] Ioannidou: That's really nice. I love the, oh, it's great. Oh, I love it. I mean, provided that your, your ethical principles on the, on the right side of the ethics, right? Correct. So then your gut feeling most of the times is Right.

[00:04:27] Roth: Exactly. I love the code too.

It talks about doing what's right and good. So if nothing else, you can always go back and say what is right and what is good.

[00:04:36] Wright: Awesome.

[00:04:36] Ioannidou: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love it. This is, this is great, and I think that we will have a great conversation, especially as we start sharing stories from dentists in our community.

So, for example, we have a question from a dentist from Pittsburgh, Dr. McKenzie, let's take it away.

[00:04:54] McKenzie: Hi, my name's Dr. Craig McKenzie, and I'm a dentist anesthesiologist in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My sticky situation is obtaining consent from adults with special healthcare needs. Consent is very straightforward for children, especially children with disabilities, um, or adults that are non-verbal and clearly not competent to give their own consent.

However, you sometimes get in a gray area with adults with special healthcare needs that do understand the risks and benefits of their procedure. I recently had a patient in her early twenties. Um, who understood the risks and benefits of the dental procedure, um, and understood the necessity of, of having that procedure done under sedation.

However, because of anxiety, she didn't, didn't wanna provide consent for treatment that day. We decided to do an oral anxiolytic prior to her next appointment so that she wasn't so nervous and for her to sign a transfer of consent to her parents prior to taking that anxiolytic. That's how I handled the situation.

What would you do?

[00:05:52] Ioannidou: Such a great question.

[00:05:53] Wright: That is, I'm interested in your answer.

[00:05:57] Roth: Well, thank you. I, well, I love it. I feel like he answered it the way that he, that it was absolutely appropriate. He recognized the patient autonomy, so the patient has the right to good treat to fair treatment and to choose the treatment that they want.

So the patient chose to have that anxiolytic and so. He did exactly the right thing. He stopped the procedure, he paused. He said, let's do this another day when we can have the consent that is needed and move forward. I think that was. Absolutely the right thing to do. The other thing that I really like is he did this procedure, he took the steps, and now he's looking back and making sure that he did it right.

And I think that's a very wise thing to do, that we always kind of look back and make sure that we are doing the right thing. I think that's very appropriate and just wonderful. What a great example. Good job.

[00:06:49] Wright: Yay.

[00:06:51] Ioannidou: It's a great example. I agree with you. I mean, the fact that, uh, we, um, get to pose and think mm-hmm.

And, you know, uh, for, it's, it's really important to recognize the, uh, the limitation sometime and postpone the procedure, right? Like it's not a crime to postpone the procedure respecting, uh, pa the patient's autonomy. So I do think that this is. I really, uh, enjoyed the story and I thought that, uh, he handled it.

And I'm an, I'm not, no, I'm no expert on ethics, but, you know, the ethic code of the ADA, but as you said, the gut, my gut feeling says that oh, yeah. That's the right way to do it, pause.

You know, think about it and, and prioritize patient.

[00:07:37] Roth: Yes.

[00:07:38] Wright: I also think, and you can tell me if I'm right, Kelly, like having that gut feeling to pause also tells you that you need to pause.

[00:07:45] Ioannidou: Oh, yeah.

[00:07:46] Wright: And that happens to me in practice, like more often than not. Absolutely. So I'm like, ah, yes. If I'm feeling a little on the inside, I'm like, okay, this is, this is the telltale sign. Yeah.

[00:07:56] Roth: Yes. And that's something that I, I just did a lecture and the three things that I like to tell my students when we're having that moment or when you have that ethical dilemma, the first thing you do is pause.

[00:08:08] Wright: Yeah. So you can hear and feel right?

[00:08:10] Roth: Yes. Yeah. So you can stop, you pause, you take a deep breath, you breathe in through your nose, out through your, through your mouth, so you can kind of reset yourself. And then I get curious. So that, that you ask questions.

[00:08:22] Wright: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:22] Roth: And I'm sure Dr. McKenzie was doing that and asking the questions, making sure that everything was right.

And then you have to be quiet and listen. So those are the three things that I always recommend is first you pause, you take that deep breath, and then you get curious, and then you get quiet. Really listen and process through all of those questions.

[00:08:40] Ioannidou: That's so good.

[00:08:42] Wright: So good.

[00:08:43] Ioannidou: And it's so difficult for people to be quiet.

[00:08:46] Roth: So hard.

[00:08:47] Ioannidou: So hard. No, I, uh, seriously, it's so hard. And another thing that I enjoyed and you pointed out, uh, is the fact that he reflected mm-hmm. On, you know, the entire treatment sequence and. Uh, and consent.

[00:09:00] Wright: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:00] Ioannidou: You have to add a fourth step after the being quiet. The reflection, I think, is important to, to kind of replay everything.

[00:09:08] Wright: There you go.

[00:09:08] Roth: Can I steal that, Effie? Is that okay? Steal it. I'm totally gonna steal that reflection.

[00:09:12] Ioannidou: Yes. I love it. For sure.

[00:09:14] Wright: It's yours.

[00:09:15] Ioannidou: Yeah.

[00:09:15] Roth: That's great.

[00:09:16] Wright: I love it. Ah, well this is so good. We're off to such a great start. We do. We have another one. So the following question, I love this one because we received it also from one of our listeners on social media and this is a topic that does spark a lot of discussion.

So let's go ahead and listen to the question brought in by Dr. Lehmann.

[00:09:35] Lehmann: Hi Effie. Hi ArNelle. It's a pleasure to reach out to you and I'm so happy you're taking my question. Um, I'm Dr. Maryanne Lehmann. I've been a general dentist for over 39 years now. I have a private practice in Fairfield County, Connecticut, which is a commuter community to New York City.

I actually was on a recent trip with some fellow colleagues of mine from dental school. We remained dental school best friends, and this same conversation came up as to how do we handle our after hours emergencies. Over the past 35 years of owning my own practice as a solo practitioner, this problem has continued.

In the beginning, back in the day when we all became new dentists, it was very cool to carry a beeper and have that beeper go off and you were equipped to respond. But then came cell phones and texts. DMs and now I have patients sending me pictures of their mouths or things that came out of their mouths.

And really people now want a more urgent reply and they have become very demanding. I recounted to my friends calls that I received on an emergency basis, and they've ranged from things like someone requiring an emergency tooth whitening. Which I don't consider an emergency at all, so don't get me wrong, I do care about my patient's oral health, and if I do have a fault as a dentist, I think I've been accused of caring too much.

But these calls have become an invasion of any chance at having a mental respite from the office. And I do hear from the newer docs and dental students that they consider their mental health a priority. Something we never talked about when we started as young dentists almost 40 years ago. So I have developed a protocol for myself and my practice, which I have shared with many people, and it starts with my own cell phone message, which states, if you are calling for a dental reason, you've called the wrong number.

And I give them my dental office number because yes, patients have called and texted my personal cell phone number. I also have an after hours office message, which defines what is a dental emergency, and I've added to the end of that message, please note for the doctor to return your call, a fee will be charged, which I really have stopped and paused to think, am I allowed to do this by the ¸£Àû¼§ÊÓƵCode of Ethics?

I only added that because as I explained to my friends in other parts of the country. Other healthcare professionals are doing that in my area. So here are my questions for you. How can we do this? How can we fulfill our ethical obligations as per the ¸£Àû¼§ÊÓƵguidelines to our patients without being overwhelmed by their demands?

Is it sufficient to say on our office after hours message if you're experiencing a dental emergency, go to the nearest emergency department? Would that be okay? Are these codes of ethics the same for every part of dentistry? Do oral maxillofacial surgeons have the same code of ethics as say general dentists?

And finally, can these calls be answered by a staff person? I am very happy you've given me this opportunity to ask the questions, and I can't wait to share your answers with my community. Thank you so much.

[00:13:23] Wright: All right. Oh wow. That was a lot. There's a lot to that.

[00:13:27] Ioannidou: A lot to unpack.

[00:13:29] Roth: That was a lot to that.

[00:13:31] Wright: Yeah.

[00:13:32] Roth: Well, I'm gonna start with kind of her last questions first. So she asked about do oral maxillofacial surgeons have the same code of ethics? Well, the ¸£Àû¼§ÊÓƵcode that we have that we follow is for all dentists and oral maxillofacial surgeons are dentists. First, so absolutely they would follow along with the same code of ethics.

They might have a separate one. I don't know. I'm a general dentist, so I don't know if they have anything separate from that, but as dentists, we all have the code, and that's something with the specialists. Okay. At the end, she also asked, is it okay for a staff member? Well, I would think so. That's kind of a triage thing, so why wouldn't we?

So as I'm thinking about this and thinking about the code too, there is something in the code about, um, emergency services.

[00:14:20] Wright: Oh, yay.

[00:14:21] Roth: So I'm gonna do a little looky upsy. And it does talk about emergency service as dentist. Shall be obliged to make reasonable arrangements for the emergency care of their patients of record.

So these are your patients of record, and of course we have that reasonable arrangements. So what's reasonable for me might be different that that's what's reasonable for you, but it's still gonna be reasonable. So I believe she asked a question about is it okay to say in your voicemail, this is a true dental emergency, go to the emergency room.

I think if that is her reasonable arrangement, then absolutely. So those are kind of some straight answers for that. And then where we get into that gray area is those boundaries.

[00:15:06] Wright: Mm-hmm. Talk about those.

[00:15:09] Roth: Talk about boundaries. So, again, with dentistry and part of the code too, the very first line is that the dental profession holds a special position of trust within society.

So because we are dentists, because we have patients, we do have that level of trust, but we also have to do what's right and good for ourselves. Before we can do what's right and good for someone else. So I think this is a very individualized situation and every person has to decide what is right and good for them and what's best for them.

If it's a boundary that you need a week away. And you are gonna turn your cell phone off as long as you're making reasonable arrangements, which is what the code says to do, have someone else answer the phone, have someone else take emergencies, turn your phone off. You're not abandoning your patients because they can still reach someone else.

So you've done that and you've made that own personal boundary for yourself, for me, for emergencies. I, I like to triage that, but that's me. You know, I like to get the phone call my, if you call my office with an emergency, it'll say, if you're having a true dental emergency, call Dr. Roth at x, y, z. There's my number.

And they usually call me, and if I can answer, I'll answer. If they leave a message and I need to call 'em back, I'll do that, but that's me. What works for someone else is gonna be totally different. But you just wanna make sure that you're acting within those bounds of what is right, what is good, what is good for your patients, and what is good for your health.

So you can kind of make those boundaries yourself. But I think everything that she had said with Dr. Lehmann was within the boundaries, and as long as she's comfortable, okay.

[00:16:54] Wright: We'll be right back.

[00:16:56] Announcer Ad: Hi, I'm Dr. Mia Geisinger. As dentists, we rely on science and research to inform our clinical judgment every day. That's why continuing education must do more than instruct. You must strengthen how we practice. Join us for the ¸£Àû¼§ÊÓƵ2026 Scientific Session, October 8th through the 10th in Indianapolis for three days of data-driven education, collaboration, and practice ready insight. Learn more at ADA.org/SciSession registration opens May 27.

[00:17:34] Ioannidou: Welcome back to Dental Sound Bites. Today we are hearing your life Dental dilemmas and searching for the right call with Dr. Kelly Roth.

[00:17:43] Wright: I have a couple questions. Can I jump into this?

[00:17:47] Roth: Yes, please.

[00:17:48] Wright: So I, I know that you have, um, your, your code right there with you. Yes. Mm-hmm. I have a couple questions about like, for the newer, I guess, dentists that are listening to this and, and I'm also asking for myself because I'm a new practice owner at the time that we're recording this.

Right. So, um, how much of this do you think that we should define specifically for ourselves? Because I feel like we instantly. Finish school and we just go into practice, whatever our practice modality is, whether we're owning or an associate or you know, in public health settings, what, whatever, or in residency.

And we don't define what those boundaries are. So like this conversation that we're having is helping me to think through, well, what is reasonable for me because truthfully. Haven't really thought about it. So like what, what recommendations would you have for someone like me who's like in that early career phase?

And, um, I've also transitioned into being a practice owner, um, just based off of like these questions.

[00:18:50] Roth: So lots of questions for you to kind of contemplate and to see and I, I've been practicing for 28 years, so I feel, you know, I practice a little differently now than I did then, but I still wanted that phone call.

And I was okay with whether or not I replied to it, but that's me, you know? And I, if I was away on vacation, of course I didn't take those phone calls. I've also been burned, um, back. I've been practicing for long enough that there was an opioid crisis, if you remember that. And I actually had a patient that said they were, I was an associate and so they figured out that being an associate, I might not know all the patients.

And so a patient called me and told me their whole life story and how much pain they were in, and I prescribed them an antibiotic and an opioid. Because I believed them, and then when I got back to the office, they weren't actually my patient. So that can really kind of burn you and make you feel like, oh, I need a harder line. I need a harder boundary.

[00:19:49] Wright: Absolutely.

[00:19:50] Roth: So that's a little bit of play. You have to figure out what you want to do and what you want to be available for. You're the practice owner, you're kind of the person.

Do you want to take all the calls or do you want to have a trusted staff member? Maybe take some of the calls here and there.

Lots of questions to kind of ask yourself and see where you wanna go. And you almost have to learn as you go. Which I know. I hate to say. Well, you'll, you'll learn as you go.

It kind of blows, you'll figure it out. You'll figure it out and you will. But you also know that there's guidance there too. So as long as you're making reasonable, reasonable trust for emergency services, you're there for, you're making reasonable arrangements.

There's the word I was looking for. Reasonable arrangements for emergency services, then that's fine.

[00:20:37] Wright: Does the, the CEBJA when you all meet as a council? Yes. Do you have any questions already outlined that our doctors or our member dentists can think about so that we can begin to form these boundaries or just these thought processes?

[00:20:54] Roth: Absolutely. That's so great. Wonderful. That you've asked. So as ¸£Àû¼§ÊÓƵdentists, we all have access to JADA. Which is our journal of the ¸£Àû¼§ÊÓƵ in JADA. There is an ethical moment. Those ethical moments started from CEBJA. So it's a little blurb like, what if this happens? How do I act? So, if you go back through all of those different things in J¸£Àû¼§ÊÓƵand the ethical moments, there are lots of that.

So. As we meet as CEBJA, we might have a dilemma that someone has brought to us that we will maybe workshop a little bit, and then one of us goes and writes it and goes through the process and tries to get it published in JADA. But there is a treasure trove of information mm-hmm. In all those ethical moments.

So yes, please go researching and find all those, and that, that's a CEBJA, a CEBJA project that we've come up with.

[00:21:45] Wright: Thank you for that. Cool, cool, cool.

[00:21:46] Roth: You're very welcome.

[00:21:47] Wright: So good. Yeah.

[00:21:48] Ioannidou: That's so this is so useful, but also things have changed so much. I remember, uh, like 30 years ago when I was doing residency, um, patients would leave a note outside my door

[00:22:03] Wright: a note?

[00:22:04] Roth: Wow.

[00:22:04] Ioannidou: Yeah. Like on a notepad with a pen and pencil. Like an actual written note. Handwritten, yeah. It's interesting that, uh, Dr. Lehmann, uh, mentioned that location. So back in, I, I did my residency in Connecticut. So, um, uh, you know, as residents you rent your, um. Co apartments in apartment buildings. So one of my patients happened to live in the same apartment building and she noticed that I'm a resident there too.

So she would call, come and leave notes for very mild emergency, not even remotely being in emergency or request to make an appointment on my door. So since, you know, uh, clearly changed a lot, and I remember those days that we were. Carrying a beeper. You're both younger, but Yes, we did.

[00:22:54] Roth: No, I had a beeper.

[00:22:55] Ioannidou: Yeah, I remember the beeper.

[00:22:57] Roth: I did, I did.

[00:22:58] Wright: I kind of wish I was like hip enough to have had a, like I had a beeper when I was in high school, but I kinda wish that now that I'm a dentist, like I had a reason for someone to age me. Yeah. You know.

[00:23:07] Ioannidou: But I have to say that, you know, my husband is a physician, so it's out of question that a patient will text them and have a request. You know, there is an, every practice has, or most of the practice at least that I know of, medical practices have an answering service, right? That receives all those requests, does the first preliminary triage, and then passes to the doctor, and the entire communication happens with the middle person, the answering service.

So it's really a very different dynamic when we, you know, compare our direct patient to physic, uh, to dentist, uh, dynamic compared to the what, you know, happens in the. In, in a medical practice.

[00:23:58] Roth: Absolutely. And that's because we are smaller.

[00:24:01] Ioannidou: Smaller.

[00:24:02] Roth: We're just smaller.

We're not a group practice, it's just me. So for me to hire an answering services a lot

[00:24:08] Ioannidou: Yeah, that's right.

[00:24:09] Wright: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:10] Ioannidou: A hundred percent. You're absolutely right. Solo practitioners, ArNelle, what happens in a DSO model?

[00:24:16] Wright: So we actually have an answering service.

[00:24:18] Ioannidou: Right.

[00:24:18] Wright: Yes. I have had answering service where I'll receive the call.

Um, one model I had, there was an answering service and then I had a special number that was some kind of way connected to my personal cell phone. But then I would just call back and it wouldn't ring from my phone number.

[00:24:35] Ioannidou: Yeah,

[00:24:35] Wright: I would return the patient's call and then, um, the answering service sometimes would text me and say, hello, your patient who is.

Seen on this date for this procedure is calling with this concern, can you please call them back? And then I would have to follow up with the answering service or with someone from the practice to let them know that it's been taken care of.

[00:24:52] Ioannidou: Yeah.

[00:24:52] Roth: So it's a bigger process.

[00:24:54] Ioannidou: It's a bigger process.

And of course it happens. Sometimes it happens through different platforms that also give you security in terms of, you know, sharing patient data. Uh, but it's, it's, that's right. It's very complicated and, and, mm-hmm.

Now we have a question from a dentist in Arizona, Dr. Lance Attiq. So let's see what the sticky situation is.

[00:25:16] Attiq: I'm Dr. Lance Attiq. I am a general dentist in practicing in Federally Qualified Health Center in Arizona. And my sticky situation is one time I was taking out a tooth on a patient and patient was extremely nervous. Came in. Really hyperventilating. Not to the point of danger, but he was just really, really nervous and he actually threw up a couple times before we took the tooth out.

I asked him multiple times if he wanted to proceed, vitals were fine, and he said, yes, I'd like to proceed. I also asked him if he had taken any medications or any substances, patient denied. So we went forward with the extraction and then, and then he puked again afterwards and started chewing on the gauze.

So. It was just an interesting story, but what would you do?

[00:26:07] Wright: I would be nervous as I get out. Wow. Let's just say that.

I'm like, nuh, no puking in here.

[00:26:12] Roth: Yeah.

[00:26:14] Wright: Way to make me get all nervous. Right.

[00:26:15] Roth: Exactly. I'm, I'm very impressed with him that he felt like he was comfortable enough to move forward. So, going back to our, our initial conversation about pausing, and it sounds like he did.

So you have a very nervous patient who vomited a couple times. Checked all the vitals, everything was good and probably checked in with himself as the doctor. Is this something I really wanna keep doing? And he chose to, so that's fine. He kept the vitals, got the tooth out, patient got sick again, you're still monitoring 'em, you're still keep being aware of them.

Um, and I think it comes back to that personal. How did you feel about it? Obviously this doctor felt comfortable proceeding for me. I probably would've paused a little bit more. Yeah, but maybe he did, you know, he could have paused and kind of made sure he made sure the vitals were okay. That's the big thing.

The patient's, okay, you're doing no harm. So it's, he's being non-maleficent by not doing any harm to the patient. He's providing treatment. He made sure the patient was comfortable. He did good by removing the pa, by removing the tooth, which was the reason for being there. So it sounds like he was very ethical in what he did, but I'm sure it was a sticky situation.

Especially as he was going through it.

[00:27:28] Ioannidou: Oh my God. Yeah.

[00:27:29] Roth: And then again, reflection

[00:27:31] Ioannidou: Here you are.

[00:27:31] Roth: Effie, he's got his reflection going down.

[00:27:34] Ioannidou: That's right. No, this is, uh, that, that's a really sticky situation. But, uh, you're right. I mean, uh, they, they, they had the, they, they follow exactly the steps that they are expected to follow and

[00:27:47] Wright: mm-hmm.

[00:27:47] Ioannidou: They, they manage the situation very well.

[00:27:50] Wright: Does that feeling ever go away since you all have been practicing for more a, a few more years than I have. You're a little seasoned.

[00:27:59] Roth: Which feeling?

[00:28:00] Wright: Just a little bit.

[00:28:01] Roth: The nerves?

[00:28:02] Wright: The, well, I guess you know what the feeling of needing to pause it probably shouldn't go away actually, right?

[00:28:07] Roth: Yes. It doesn't, you rec for me. I recognize it a little faster.

[00:28:13] Wright: Okay. That's what it is.

[00:28:14] Roth: I think it's more when you're very, I know when I was a young dentist, I wanted to have all the answers and I wanted to have 'em straight away, and then you learn that it's okay to not know. It's okay to say, I don't know.

And it's okay to take that deep breath and say, hmm, let me think about that. Or this doesn't feel right, I need to step back a little bit. And it does. It takes time. It takes a little bit of experience. It takes practice.

[00:28:40] Wright: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:41] Roth: And especially if you get into those conflicting ones. For me, I am so anti-conflict that.

Conflict really amps me up. So, to have to pause and to sit back is as it's a learned experience, if you will.

[00:28:56] Wright: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:58] Ioannidou: I think, uh, pausing comes with aging. Then, you know, as you become more, much more, you feel, uh, it comes with aging and confidence. The more mature you are, the more confident you are.

Comfortable with posing when we are. I mean, I speak for myself when I was younger, I, you know, I felt that my immediate, uh, response would be a sign of, confidence and knowledge, but it's certainly not. It's not, and we know now that, you know, fast, reacting fast doesn't mean that you know your reaction is right, right.

[00:29:33] Wright: Very true.

[00:29:33] Ioannidou: So I’m pausing and thinking and digging deep and, you know, remembering and analyzing and, you know, putting all the data points, points together, I think certainly will be. Put you back to a, a, a more, uh, advantageous, uh, position.

[00:29:48] Roth: Absolutely.

[00:29:48] Wright: Hmm. So good.

[00:29:51] Announcer: On the next Dental Sound Bites.

[00:29:54] Wright: Join us for an important conversation on navigating substance use, addiction, and learning where to turn for meaningful support and guidance.

[00:30:03] Claytor: I got to the point to where going to work was not, uh, uh, exciting anymore. It became a feeling of hopelessness and helplessness, as we always talk about in burnout. I thought it was a sign of weakness. If I asked for help. I thought it was a sign of I was gonna be found out that I wasn't perfect and that I had some flaws.

[00:30:20] Wright: I love that we are talking about this.

[00:30:26] Ioannidou: Oh my God. Uh, Kelly, it's such a, such a great conversation. I just, uh, I love it. And thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:30:35] Roth: You are so welcome. Thank you.

[00:30:36] Ioannidou: So useful. Uh, is there anything else you, you can add that you would like to add, uh, that we haven't covered?

[00:30:43] Roth: I think we covered. So much of it. I just wanna reach out again and say thank you to CEBJA. Thank you for my experience and my time there. Thank you for the ADA, for allowing me to serve on that council. And please reach out to CEBJA, reach out to the ADA, reach out to anyone that is there to help you. That's what we're here for.

[00:30:59] Ioannidou: Thank you so much for being on the show today with us. It was a pleasure.

Thank you, uh, to meet you, it was pleasure having you. So thank you, Kelly.

[00:31:08] Wright: Yes. We're so glad.

[00:31:08] Roth: Thank you so much for letting me come on your show and to talk about ethics.

[00:31:12] Ioannidou: Such a pleasure. Thank you, Kelly

[00:31:14] Wright: And to our listeners, a reminder that we will have all of the resources and any information mentioned in the episode.

They will be linked in the show notes on ADA.org/Podcast.

[00:31:23] Ioannidou: And if you have questions or stories you want to share with us, send us a message on ¸£Àû¼§ÊÓƵsocial channels.

[00:31:30] Wright: And don't forget, you can now watch our episodes on the ADA's YouTube channel.

[00:31:34] Ioannidou: Goodbye.

[00:31:35] Wright: Goodbye.

[00:31:37] Roth: Peace out.

[00:31:38] Announcer: Thank you for joining us. Dental Sound Bites is an ¸£Àû¼§ÊÓƵ podcast.

You can also find this show resources and more on the ¸£Àû¼§ÊÓƵMember App and online at ADA.org/Podcast.